Lessons Learned...

June 2010 Meet

Lessons Learned...

Postby austeve79 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:28 pm

[Moved Steve's post and subsequent replies here:]

OK, people ... help me out here. I have re-read the DM rules, both in SK#3 and on page A26, section 10.62 (I now own the MMP 2nd Ed rules).

10.62: "DM is a condition which afflicts any unit during the Player Turn it breaks (even if it breaks voluntarily) or any already broken unit which is subsequently attacked by WP, or enough FP (taking the possibility of Cowering into account) to possibly inflict at least a NMC result on the target. An effective Sniper attack causes DM to all broken enemy units in the same Location as the unit attacked - not just the attacked unit."

Key is "already broken" and the attack "MUST be able to inflict at least a NMC" considering cowering.

Unless there is a rule somewhere that overrides the first sentence of 10.62, the sheer fact that any unit simply firing on a broken infantry unit places it under DM is not correct.

Thus an 'any' point, fire attack with sufficient DRMs that could not obtain a NMC does not place a unit under DM, considering cowering. Leader directed removes cowering so you can stay on the same column but with enough DRMs, if no NMC is possible, no DM. A PTC does not count.

Example, broken squad in a STONE building, +3 DRM. A 2 point, non leader directed attack means that even with a 2 (the best roll in the game) causes cowering (doubles) thus reduces the attack onto the 1 column, and when you add 3 yields a DRM corrected result of a '5', PTC, no possible means of obtaining a NMC thus NO DM marker is placed, per rule 10.62.

Please point me to the rule that overrides this situation. Please remember, I am still digesting ASL. (Actually, I believe the simply firing on a broken unit to place under DM is a SL rule but I don't want to contaminate my brain by looking at those rules)

Also, a unit may elect to remain under DM in order to rout the next rout phase, something I was unaware of.

Oh, and why am I a "6+1" leader counter?? Did I do something to hurt some one feelings?

Can I at least be a "7-0" ?? Shoot, I'm a veteran....
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Re: Thanks for an excellent outing!!!

Postby drchilds » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:55 am

Unless there is a rule somewhere that overrides the first sentence of 10.62, the sheer fact that any unit simply firing on a broken infantry unit places it under DM is not correct.


You are correct. Did someone tell you otherwise?

Example, broken squad in a STONE building, +3 DRM. A 2 point, non leader directed attack means that even with a 2 (the best roll in the game) causes cowering (doubles) thus reduces the attack onto the 1 column, and when you add 3 yields a DRM corrected result of a '5', PTC, no possible means of obtaining a NMC thus NO DM marker is placed, per rule 10.62.


Yes, that's correct. However keep in mind that a 2 is not the "best roll in the game" unless the infantry unit is leader directed (or otherwise immune to cowering). (The name of the game is Squad Leader, don't forget!) A "2" is pretty darned good when firing Ordnance, which does not cower. :D
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Re: Thanks for an excellent outing!!!

Postby austeve79 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:04 pm

Yes, it was mentioned and somebody confirmed it. While I questioned it, I went with the 'experience' of the group.

Maybe I ought to trust my own knowledge a little better.

Yes, it is squad LEADER. 1 in 36 is still a very low probability and Sarge can't be everywhere.

I am sure 'cowering' is simply a 'random' event to put in to add more uncertainly into the game but certain units (Elites, for example, SS for sure) ought to be exempt. Conscripts, green, 2nd line yes, 1st line, maybe.

I don't ever remember Carter, Little John or Gage cowering.... (grin)

Thanks for the response!

Steve
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Re: Lessons Learned...

Postby drchilds » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:48 pm

I see. Well, we all make mistakes. It's a complex game with a thick rulebook and even Perry gets it wrong sometimes (if you don't know who he is, you will soon). If you think you might be right, just politely ask for a rules dive and confirm. I don't think anyone in the group would mind that as long as the game play isn't slowed to a crawl. Hell, as you pointed out at the May meet, I forgot about the normal-range/open-ground clause of the very same rule. (In my defense, I can't recall the last time that came into play).

As we like to say, the perfect game of ASL is yet to be played, but certainly something to strive for--but never at the expense of fun.

Just FYI... the same principle applies to Encirclement (A7.7).

As far as the "best roll in the game" goes... there's a lot of design-for-effect principles and gameplay concessions baked into the system. Many I'm sure you'll disagree with if reality/simulation is your main goal. Many people just look at ASL as a great way to game "war movies" rather than simulate actions in WW2. I really don't want to get into reality arguments because as they say, that way lies madness--but to illustrate a simple case in point: the FlaK 18 had a much longer effective range than what's presented in SL/ASL, but you don't want that one piece just killing everything, right? Cowering has been around since SL:Crescendo of Doom and remained part of the system. I personally see it (specifically) and the IFT (generally) as representing the simple fact that not every rifle was on-line and active all the time. When there's a leader present and directing fire, the number of rifles and men firing them is far more likely to be greater; so if you want those snake-eyes to count, Sarge really should be there.

The Elite and 1st line Brits are immune because of what's specifically described in the notes... training and doctrine. As far as your Waffen SS assertion? I respectfully disagree. History has proven the Waffen SS reputation to not match their actual performance, especially in the earlier years. Fanaticism and equipment I will grant you, but combat effectiveness, no. Those former factors are represented well in ASL in Morale and OB, in my opinion. But that's a whole other debate... :D

Hope to see you in Santa Fe in July!

~Dave
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Re: Lessons Learned...

Postby Keith Collins » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:01 am

Steve,

Definately a good idea to do a post game/meet rules dive. A good way to learn.

I while I'm playing a game I often make note of rules questions for look up/further reading later so as not to slow the pace of the game. Plus it gives good topics to post on "Lessons Learned" threads.

With regard to your post on DM being caused by enemy fire and cowering:
I remember a question regarding a unit being under DM when it first broke.

I don't remember being involved in a conversation regarding DM when a broke unit is being fired on, but your understanding of this is correct, the shot had to have been able to result in at least a NMC. Which in practice usually means you look at a 3 result on the (I)IFT (if subject to cowering) or a 2 result on the (I)IFT (if immune to cowering).

As far as rules issues/lookups go, I think the very "unoffical" standard operating procedure for the DWAC club is that during a game, a rules question should not cause more than about a 5 minute delay for (look up, or rules shout out to other players, etc) before being resolved with a friendly roll of the dice or some other agreed upon meathod. Not to say that exceptions aren't made for "teaching games" or at an opponents request if there is a rule that is critical to his strategy.

Part of the rational for this is to make sure each guy is having fun and the game is moving. The other rational is that I've found that you will learn more from playing 2 fast but "rules imperfect" games than by playing 1 slow "rules perfect" game.
A great way to learn/play at a slower pace that allows rules lookups before each move is VASL PBEM. I have used that often to play scenarios that are rules dense for the first time (beach landings, paradrops, Night, etc) and to teach newer players, because the format removes the time preassure of a FtF game and allow all sorts of rules lookups and comments to be embedded in the gameplay.

Ah, the old unit type such and such is not rated properly or given the capability I think is should have in the game discussion. These debates can be fun and everybody has their own pet peeve (ask me about the Tiger I and KV-I armor factors sometime) but the more I play, the more I'm coming to understand that ASL as a game works well as a whole. ASL does have some warts but the funny thing is most ASL players can't agree on what the warts are. Anyhoo, these sorts of debates can be fun but tend to take alot of wind, electrons, or ink, depending on the meduim. I tend to engage in them now only when I know I have the time.

Steve, Your rank on the forums is based on number of posts. As you post total climbs you rank will increase. Good thing it's not based on post content quality or I'd be a 5+2 :lol:

DR, your point about the perfect game is a good one, I used to focus on that way back in the day, but eventually I learned that it is near impossible but since then, I'ver read seveal posts from high level tournament players stating the same as well as looking at series replay articles with other accomplished players and all of them have one or more rules errors. I've heard it said that ASL is game where two players play against the rulebook :shock: Fun is the key, perfect game secondary. Just to be clear I'm not advocating tossing out the rulebook or ignoring rules.

I'm looking forward to the July meet.

Hope to see you all there.
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Re: Lessons Learned...

Postby Keith Collins » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:36 pm

At this meet I learned:

Mines do not activate if you are only changing a VCA in the hex. They activate on entry or exit of the hex.

I was able to put to use some tactics JD taught me a couple years back. Minefields without units covering them are useless. I covered the AT mines with infantry which prevented the German infantry from clearing them which forced the German AFV's to go thru the mines which cost them a Tiger II.

Also place the blocking type fortifications so that the enemy won't see them until they are comitted to a direction that will cost them significant MP's to avoid the blockage.

I learned that bow machine guns cannot be used when your AFV is Hulldown, (actually I knew that but that didn't stop me from trying it anyway until my astute opponent pointed it out).

I'm starting to grasp just how effective pazerfausts are.

I'm learning how to play the force preservation game in scenarios where you have a small OB. Two meets in a row where I've had 6 squads taking on 12 or more. Skulk, Skulk, and Skulk some more, keep concealment, delay entry into CC for as long as possible (unless you have a 3 Ambush DRM in your favor), always have a fall back rout/rally location selected in advance (which a good player can nullify and Jeff did) and of course have your opponent roll high and you roll low so you look like an ASL genius 8-)

The hardest part of defending sometimes is figuring out the nebulous timing of when to pull back and when to fight is out for another turn.
Comfortable with Chapters: A-G, J, O, P, & V
Will play ASLSK to teach new players
Will happily play anything ASL (IIFT preferred)
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Re: Lessons Learned...

Postby Keith Collins » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:41 pm

Oh, almost forgot...

I learned Nahverteidigungswaffe can deploy smoke.
Comfortable with Chapters: A-G, J, O, P, & V
Will play ASLSK to teach new players
Will happily play anything ASL (IIFT preferred)
sig erratta (replace Chapt P above with Q)
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